What's a kufaar? Well, pretty much all of us, apart from my Muslim readers. Thanks to Josh B in Seattle, I can refer you to this Youtube link, which provides a less than heartwarming undercover investigation into one of Britain's allegedly mainstream mosques, where you can hear preachers advocating the marrying of pre-pubescent girls (the "Prophet" did it in the 7th century, so how can you question it?), throwing homosexuals "off the mountain," and arguing that Allah made the woman, "even if she has a Ph.D., deficient." Your little girl won't wear the hijab? "Hit her." Your children won't pray? "Hit them." And bear in mind, that less than gentle treatment is for the faithful. We outsiders, members of the kufaar, also referred to, curiously, as kaffirs (I say curiously, because the preacher throwing this word around so freely is a black American convert to Islam, and as some of you will know, kaffir was/is a derogatory term commonly used by white South Africans to refer to black people).
So, looks like the Religion Of Peace strikes (out) again, and before someone rushes to accuse me of taking things out of context, fanning the flames of Islamophobia, relying on right-wing information sources, etc., bear in mind that this programme was produced by Britain's Channel 4, often criticised for its left-wing and multi-culti bias. Just watch the video, and tell me if you think this is appropriate stuff for the many children in the congregation to be exposed to.
So, looks like the Religion Of Peace strikes (out) again, and before someone rushes to accuse me of taking things out of context, fanning the flames of Islamophobia, relying on right-wing information sources, etc., bear in mind that this programme was produced by Britain's Channel 4, often criticised for its left-wing and multi-culti bias. Just watch the video, and tell me if you think this is appropriate stuff for the many children in the congregation to be exposed to.
23 comments:
And, how, exactly, are the tenets of Christianity any less stupid and backwards than those of Islam?
How are nutty Christian fundamentalists, who regard all non-Christians as destined for hellfire, any less nutty than the Muslim people to whom you refer?
You're suffering from a serious case of cultural bias and double-standardism, my friend.
I only referred readers to a very well-documented report about what was being preached in some very mainstream mosques in the UK. You are welcome to post references, if you have them, to similar doctrines being preached in mainstream Christian churches like Westminster Abbey or St. Patrick's Cathedral, which would be roughly the counterparts to the mosques examined in the Channel 4 report.
Dear Anonymous,
Since I am the Josh B who referred this to Mr. Livermore, perhaps I should answer your charges.
Firstly, I suggest you actually watch the linked videos. What is most disturbing, and the principle reason for this program, is that the undercover reporters chose to film in so called "moderate" congregations.
You correctly identify that the tenets of fundamentalist Christianity may be termed stupid and backward. Where you fail horribly is in contrasting the tenor of the featured Imams with those of their Christian counterparts. The calls for violence against the gay community and non-believers heard in these reports can only be found in the small parish of a hate monger like Fred Phelps or in racists sects like World Church of the Creator. Yet we hear repeated echoes in these moderate Muslim congregations. While the tragic ignorance of Pat Roberton blaming 9/11 or hurricanes on the gay community is truly disturbing, it pales when compared to repeated calls by these "moderate Imams" for violence against women, subtle discrimination against gays, praising the deaths of Muslims in the armed forces and for the conversion or killing of non-believers.
So Mr/Mrs Anonymous I invite you to do as Larry suggested and post references backing your assertion that the information that; the BBC reported, I cited and Larry posted has a corresponding note within mainstream Christian communities (make no mistake, these mosques are mainstream...for the truly depraved seek ye the Finsbury park mosque)
I'm fairly certain the rhetorical silence will be deafening but the day is young and I do enjoy surprises.
I do not dispute the sheer reprehensibility of the ideas being expressed in the video.
I dispute your contentions that these ideas are 1) mainstream, and 2) unique to Islam, and do not exist in equal proportions in Christianity.
If you are unaware of similar proclamations by Christian fundamentalists against homosexuals, against women's rights, against practioners of other faiths, and in favor of literally destroying their opposition, and forcing the rest of society to follow their version of a morality, I am happy to provide you with voluminous references.
So your argument boils down, effectively, to "the Christian nuts are not mainstream, but the Muslim nuts are mainstream." But this is an assumption for which you have provided no credible evidence. Contrary to what you may believe, soundbite proclamations of individuals in London mosques, or even Cairo mosques, are no more representative of mainstream Muslim beliefs than soundbites I could provide you with from leaders of Christian congregations, from the United States, to Latin America, to the Philipines, to Christian Africa.
I await those citations which support your statment that you:
"dispute... (my) contentions that these ideas are 1) mainstream, and 2) unique to Islam, and do not exist in equal proportions in Christianity"
proceed.
Children listen and take it all in, i know of a child who (from influence from her parents) wouldnt go near me because i am not muslim and do not wear a scarf. If children are preached to they will subconsciously act accordingly even if they are brought up in schools of all ethnicities. A girl in my school is so rigid in her views she will not accept anybody else's thought unless approved my her parents and/or mosque. For someone aged 15, that shows sever negative influence from other people.
Josh,
You and Larry have made the assertion that these reprehensible views are more mainstream in Islam than they are in Christianity.
Therefore, it is you who have the burden of proving the veracity of your statements with credible evidence, not me.
Unless the entire cruz of your case rests entirely on a few statements of individuals attending a mosque in London, I think you have a long ways to go before you have met your burden.
Anonymous,
Read your first post...then the thread.
At no point in this entire discussion have you provided one citation for your assertions. Let's start with some basic information backing your position...provide for me references from a pulpit by a mainstream Christian leader that advocates violence against the gay community, violence against women, violence against unbelievers and/or utilizes hate speech to characterize non-beleivers.
Remember, this can't be World Church of the Creator or Fred Phelps, we are talking about leaders that hold audiences with PM's or are recognized as community leaders.
After the September 11, 2001, attacks Jerry Falwell said on the 700 Club, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen." (to which Robertson concurred). [20] After heavy criticism, Falwell apologised.
As for homosexuality, Falwell remarked, "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell#Apocalyptic_beliefs
On January 14, 1991, on The 700 Club, Pat Robertson attacked a number of Protestant denominations when he declared: "You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."[14] He has never recanted this statement, though he has supported the election of certain Episcopalians.
Robertson has described feminism as a "socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
On the June 8, 1998 edition of his show, Robertson denounced Orlando, Florida and Disney World for allowing a privately sponsored "Gay Days" weekend. Robertson stated that the acceptance of homosexuality could result in hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, terrorist bombings and "possibly a meteor."[19] The resulting outcry prompted Robertson to return to the topic on June 24, where he quoted the Book of Revelation to support his claims.
On March 23, 1995, Pat Robertson led a television program in which he attacked the religion of Hinduism. He called it "demonic" and said that Hindus should be barred from entering the United States. He said that they worship "idols" and "hundreds of millions of deities," which "has put a nation in bondage to spiritual forces that have deceived many for thousands of years."
On the March 21, 2006 broadcast of The 700 Club, while reviewing The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America by David Horowitz, the subject of which is radical academics in American universities, Robertson went on to say that the 101 professors named in the book are only but a few of "thirty to forty thousand" left-wing professors in the United States, all of whom he accused of being "racists, murderers, sexual deviants and supporters of Al-Qaeda", further labeling them as "termites that have worked into the woodwork of our academic society".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_robertson#Claim_that_some_denominations_harbor_the_spirit_of_the_Antichrist
And this is the tip of the iceberg. I rest my case.
On second thought, why rest there?
In Uganda, there's a Christian group called the Lord's Resistance Army. They believe that their actions are based on the 10 Commandments. They also murder and enslave the women and children of the tribes they destroy.
It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself a spirit medium, and apparently wishes to establish a state based on his unique interpretation of the Acholi religious syncretism and Premillennialism. The LRA is accused of widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, rape, the abduction of civilians, the use of child soldiers and a number of massacres
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army
Or let's go even deeper. Let's not take the proclamations of mere mortals on what Christianity stands for. Let's examine what the Word of God itself is as pertains to women, gays, etc.:
1 Corinthians 11:5
"And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. "
Ephesians 5:22-24
"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. "
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man; also lie will mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Exodus 22:20
"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed."
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Deuteronomy 13:12-16
"If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt."
Jerry Falwell's a giant, blubbering twat.
That's very nice of you to post all those Bible quotations for us. No doubt you will of course acknowledge that the Koran is at least as replete with examples of barbarism of a similar ilk.
But what you've neatly skated around is the fact that we're not debating the Bible vs. the Koran, we're talking about what mainstream preachers in mainstream mosques are teaching today. You have completely failed to show us a counterpart in mainstream Christianity, and no, the "Lord's Resistance Army" of Uganda is not mainstream Christianity. Televangelists like Falwell and Robertson aren't either, though they come a bit closer. However, as loony as those two can be, I haven't heard them joking about executing Jews, or branding them as "pigs," as Sheik Feiz Mohammad (an Australian, it turns out), does in the Channel 4 video.
The Regents Park mosque in London is pretty much the centre of mainstream Islamic life in the UK. It is anything but a fringe outfit; nor is the Birmingham Green Lanes mosque, which is at the centre of the Channel 4 programme. The Finsbury Park mosque, home of Abu "Captain Hook" Hamza, is a bit more out there on the fringe, but not so much so that it was ever ostracised by mainstream Muslim leaders. Yet it was found to be hiding weapons, chemical and nuclear protection suits, fake passports, and the general accoutrements of terrorism. Please cite some Christian churches, even of the Falwell/Robertson ilk, that are holding stashes of this sort.
Lastly, I had 12 years of fairly rigid Catholic education, and this was back in the pre-Vatican II days, before the Church went all Kumbaya on us. Yet as strict and traditional as my Church was, never once in those 12 years did I hear that it was all right, let alone admirable, to kill Muslims or Jews or other non-believers. We were told to pray for them that they would find the true religion, but that was as far as it went. Similarly, we were never led to believe that violence against sinners or nonbelievers was in any way countenanced by the Church. "Hate the sin, love the sinner," was what we were taught. If you can't see the difference between that kind of religion and the kind portrayed on the Channel 4 programme, I can only conclude that you are deliberatly choosing to remain blind out of some atavistic and seriously misplaced ethnic or tribal loyalty.
Larry,
I guess our disagreement is in whom we categorize as a "mainstream" representative of each religion.
Without basis, you categorize a guy named "Sheik Feiz Mohammad" in Australia as a mainstream representative of Islam, yet in the same statement you question whether Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, who have millions of supporters, are necessarily mainstream representatives of Christianity.
And what individuals from third world countries say in mosques in London is not representive of mainsteam Muslim opinion, either. London is as far an outpost and cultural backwater to Islam as Uganda is to Christianity.
In fact, there are millions more Christians in Uganda than there are Muslims in Britain. Christians of all denominations make up 85.1% of Uganda's population of over 27 million (i.e., 20 million+ people), while Muslims in Britain number only 1.5 million people, according to the UK census.
In your eagerness to obtain evidence to justify your adverse opinions on Islam, you have settled for taking a suitably objectionable representation of Islam and misrepresenting it to your readers as "mainstream," rather than admit that the truth. The truth is that nuts and bigots exist in Christianity in equal proportion as they do in Islam, and that Christianity, as an ideological concept, is just as stupid as Islam.
(And of course the Koran has quotes which are just as vile and absurd as those I've provided from the Bible. That's my point. They're both equally objectionable - not just one of them)
You make a fair point about Sheik Feiz Muhammad. Certainly he is no more mainstream than the Falwell/Robertson types, perhaps even less so, and it was careless of me to lump him in with the very mainstream mosques observed in the Channel 4 programme.
However, I think the reason he is mentioned in that programme and why I brought him up was that apparently DVDs of his hateful preaching are being sold in one or both of the mosques involved, and to me that involves at least some complicity, tacit or otherwise. If DVDs of some fanatic Christian urging the slaughter of Jews or Muslims were being sold on the grounds of Westminster Abbey or St. Patrick's Cathedral, I think it would be fair to condemn those institutions, "mainstream" as they may be.
But regardless, you are correct, in my opinion, in pointing out that Sheik Feiz Muhammad is not representative of the mainstream of Muslim thought.
I am as usual thoroughly disgusted with everyone here except Larry. None of you are smart ok. I was raised in a fairly conservative archdiocese where 90% of the population is Roman Catholic. Yet noone was/is ever been told that non-Catholics are liars, we have been told that its more important to respect everyone and acknowledge they may well possess all the virtues I have without converting. Read some of the fathers, get some wisdom in that vapid soul of yours. In mainstream or orthodox Christianity, which represents a significant % of the population we are getting awfully disturbed by what we're hearing. We're a silent majority and you can't possibly try and say we're bad for society. Read "God is Love" by Benedict XVI, you'll see the exact opposite is being preached but you continue with your sitcom world. The disgusting thing about close-minded liberals is that you can't see that we're with you, we didn't vote for Bush and we are working and praying for peace but we can stand the thought that maybe a 2nd world people that can't get their assholes out of the 6th century actually needs reform, my God the bigotry, shoot me. God bless you Larry Livermore.
-Sammy
Larry,
I'm glad we can agree that the Muslim persons cited in the British television program should not necessarily be regarded as mainstream representatives of the Muslim religion.
As for what the motives of those media outlets which falsely attempt to portray negative portrayals of Islam as "mainstream" are, who knows.
I personally suspect it is a small part of a greater propaganda war to demonize Islam and Muslims, in order to create moral pretexts on which to invade and "civilize" oil-rich countries, which happen, low and behold, to also be Muslim.
We can agree that some of the persons portrayed in the Channel 4 programme are not representative of mainstream Islam.
However, and this is what is disturbing, they are being allowed to preach, and their DVDs and books are being sold in what are very mainstream mosques. The problem is not that there are a few fanatics - every religion has those - but that mainstream Islam doesn't seem to be able or willing to distance itself from those fanatics.
I don't know about mainstream Islam having less of a propensity for distancing itself from fundamentalists in its ranks than mainstream Christianity.
After all, Pat Robertson, who is an equally intolerant and reprehinsible religious ideologue, has a television show called The 700 Club, which airs on cable's ABC Family and is in wide syndication throughout the United States and Canada. If that's marginalizing a fanatic, and distancing oneself from it, it's a funny way of doing so.
The Trinity Broadcasting Network, or TBN, is the largest Christian (and largest religious) television network in the world. It owns twenty-three U.S. full-power television stations and 252 low-power rural stations, and boasts five million viewer households per week in the U.S. TBN is carried on over six thousand television stations in the U.S., and on thousands of cable television systems in seventy-five countries around the world, where its programs are translated into eleven languages.
How can you expect mainstream Muslims to "distance" themselves from individual idiots speaking at a mosque when mainstream Christians can't even prevent their own nutty fundamentalists from creating vast media empires with better mainstream media distribution and exposure than Paris Hilton?
To the 1st Anonymous who asked about 'nutty Christian doctrines'.
Firstly, Christians DO believe that those outside of Christ will face a lost eternity. But lets not try to make that mean we have no love for unbelievers. The whole point of many of Jesus parables, such as the lost sheep.. is that God LOVES the sinner and wishes for him/her to repent. The first word of the Gospel is ..'repent'. If a person chooses not to do so, no one is going to come along and carve his or her head off.
I was at a prayer meeting of 4000 people on Friday, and outside was a little group of atheists holding up a book 'God is a delusion' by Dawkins. Did we hold up a sign "KILL those who insult God"? and then proceed to stomp the evil atheists to death ? no, of course not, they are loved by God, and we treated them so, and invited them to Christ, and then went our way.
THAT... my friend is the difference between Islam and Christ.
The Quran in Surah 9:29 says
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
IMPORTANT QUESTION. "How did Mohammed and his companions interpret this ? defensively or OFFensively ?
Hadith Bukhari Volume 4 book 53 number 386 shows clearly that this verse was interpeted OFFensively and specifically with the goal of forced conversion "Until"...
Al Mughara speaking
"Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone...."
So, clearly, the radicals who invaded Regents Park mosque in London are taking this seriously when they said "Islam will dominate UK whethere you like it or not"
I urge all readers, to consider this.
Form yourselves into teams of 10 people (2 car loads) be self contained and independant, but ready to move at a moments notice to demonstrate, counter demonstrate, protest etc against the lunacy of the radical Muslims. Each area/suburb should form such a team and a central coordinator simply has to name time, place and issue, for swarms of us to descend for peaceful protest against such things as the radicals.
Deuteronomy 1:15 "So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you, leaders of thousands and of hundreds, of fifties and of tens, and officers for your tribes.
You can form a 10 team of a secular or Christian nature, we all face the same enemy.
jdrmot@tpg.com.au for more information
ACTIVISM and its IMPACT.
To give an idea of the power of 'one', I recently did some surfing on youtube and found some incredibly racist videos produced by Lebanese Muslims. (Sydney Australia) I sent these to both major media companies, the Prime Minister, and the Police. Within 2 days, everyone and his dog were running for relevance as the story was plastered over the Media Australia wide. The PM, Opposition leader, State Premier and his opposition counterpart, the spokesman for the Lakemba mosque and the education dept and police all had to make statements and declare they were investigating the issue.
see this link for how bad they were.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sickening-gang-videos-removed/2007/01/24/1169518746379.html
I'm going to do a follow up, using 10 very robust body builders and martial artists with balaclava's on calling themselves 'Granville Patriots' to show a mainstream Aussie response to these Lebanese Muslim 'Granville Soldiers' and hopefully it sends the message that we won't tolerate 'under new management' on the map of Australia, and also promote the idea of the 10-teams mentioned in the last post. I'll also youtube it.
Yeah, you're right. Christians don't resort to violence when it comes to intolerance for other groups. That's what the Muslims do, but definitely not the Christians.
That is, unless they're in Uganda...
In Uganda, there's a Christian group called the Lord's Resistance Army. They believe that their actions are based on the 10 Commandments. They also murder and enslave the women and children of the tribes they destroy.
It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself a spirit medium, and apparently wishes to establish a state based on his unique interpretation of the Acholi religious syncretism and Premillennialism. The LRA is accused of widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, rape, the abduction of civilians, the use of child soldiers and a number of massacres
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army
This talk of the LRA being 'Christian' is a complete red herring... Have you ever read the 10 Commandments?
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
The things this group are reported as doing don't even come close.
YOu can believe in the 10 commandments - and still not be Christian...
Jesus said
You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5.43-48
In Romans 12:19-21, Paul writes, "19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (NRSV)
This is mainstream Christian theology...
God Bless you...
Mick
A Danish language researcher, Dr. Tina Magaard, Ph.D., has spent over three years analyzing the original texts of ten different religions. She concludes that the Islamic texts stand out by encouraging terror and violence to a larger degree than other religions do.
Four years after the terror attacks at the World Trade Center, Danish linguist Tina Magaard presented an analysis that questions Islam’s relationship with terror, violence and Holy War.
Dr. Magaard has a PhD in Textual Analysis and Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne in Paris, and has spent three years on a research project comparing the original texts of ten religions. She concluded, 'Islamic texts encourage terror and fighting to a far larger degree than the original texts of other religions.”
“The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree.”
"There are also straightforward calls for terror.”
"This has long been a taboo in the research into Islam, but it is a fact that we need to deal with. Moreover, there are hundreds of calls in the Koran for fighting against people of other faiths.
“If it is correct that many Muslims view the Koran as the literal words of God, which cannot be interpreted or rephrased, then we have a problem.
"It is indisputable that the [Muslim] texts encourage terror and violence. Consequently, it must be reasonable to ask Muslims themselves how they relate to the text, if they read it as it is."
Knowing that Islam has no Golden Rule, any verses which invoke charity or kindness or freeing of slaves are meaningless, since they don't apply to humankind generally and are abrogated or otherwise meaningless, since they also command believers to kill, steal, plunder, and enslave people for the thought crime of not thinking Mohammed is a valid prophet.
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